Hello GeoControl!

[monks]

Hi, I'm curently playing with the demo and I'd like to give a bit of feedback and ask some questions please. :)


I really like this program!

I like the L-Systems approach: very nice. Innovative!
I like the multi-res editing feature. Do you have any plans to incorporate wavelet technology into GeoControl in the future?
I like the ability to create inhomogenous terrains.
I like the layers system: very cool.
I like the erosion, from what I've seen.
I like the slopes tool, very handy.
I really like the move that you've made towards more descriptive parameters: such as 'rounded hills', 'glaciate', etc, instead of abstract numbers and sliders. Related to that, I do like the terrain presets: the hills are very cool!
The 3D prev is a bit basic, but I like what's there, especially the lighting and speed.


The program is very good at terrain generation at the heightfield level. It has a lot of control, but do you have any plans to implement more control at the design stage, other than the traditional paintbrush? I'm involved with this project:
http://me-dem.ashundar.com/index.php


and we're looking to possibly recommend GeoControl to our members.

From our perspective it would be great to have an image overlay option (with transparency settings) over the heightfield in order to be able to paint terrain from a topo reference.
Some kind of high level editing (what I would call a 'design mode'), such as vector shapes, splines, placeable L-Systems, colourmaps, etc, would be great. These could be used to build up a very basic terrain (large scale features) with huge control onto which the GeoControl procedural magic could be applied to.
Georeffed import/export.
It would be nice to have an interactive 3D preview (not necessarily editable), which you could pan and rotate to get a better view.
A very useful feature would be ultra-large terrain support, perhaps via a memory management scheme, tile-able heightfields on import and export (again geo-reffed).

Thanks,
Carl: monks

[Patrick210]

I think you are missing a lot of functionality when you say "traditional paintbrush". The brush is anything but traditional. It carries the filter information and creates new topology, not just raise and lower. The brush can also use different filters other than the ones used in the generated terrain. You should explore the brush functionality more deeply. It is really the revolutionary part of GeoControl.
I don't know if you noticed, but the preview can be seen from the four sides and zoomed in on.

[imported_cajomi]

Hello monks,

thanks for your feedback!

The 3D preview is very basic. It is planned to improve it for Version 2. First goal was a preview, which also works for 4096er terrains and show all details.

From our perspective it would be great to have an image overlay option (with transparency settings) over the heightfield in order to be able to paint terrain from a topo reference.

If I understand you right, that is here really simple to solve: Just import the heightfield and then brush on it, or erode it. With the protection slider you have great control, how much details are kept or not.

Some kind of high level editing (what I would call a 'design mode'), such as vector shapes, splines, placeable L-Systems, colourmaps, etc, would be great. These could be used to build up a very basic terrain (large scale features) with huge control onto which the GeoControl procedural magic could be applied to.

I am thinking about vectors for version2, and I think it will work great. But mostly about urbanization tools, for building streets, rivers, building places and so on. For a basic terrain I would use the brush, to produce inhomogenous landscapes and afterwards the cut tool, to seperate the whole into smaller terrains, for the closer views.
Version2 will also have a special cutter, which flattens the basic terrain in the cut arrear and then the cutted terrain can be combined without any border.
Also you can build a great project, 4096, by creating smaller terrains and place them, where you want. The layers are movable. So you can combine lets say 16 512er terrains to one 4096er project terrain. For example, a mountain is free movable, or a lake (using a mountain with the subtract method). Afterwards you can use the project terrain as reference and create the smaller terrains much greater and a least combine then in the final application to one great world, with 640000*64000 points.

Georeffed import/export
Digital Canvas Guilde will build a plugin for very many Geo formats with some very interesting special option, like special water terrains, which carry the water informations. It will be available for version 2. And of course it will be not very expensive.

It would be nice to have an interactive 3D preview (not necessarily editable), which you could pan and rotate to get a better view.

Is planned for version 2, but needs a better raytracer and will be not so fast rendering.

A very useful feature would be ultra-large terrain support, perhaps via a memory management scheme, tile-able heightfields on import and export (again geo-reffed).

The cut tool works like a zoom. (you find the cut tool in the brush section). I am not so convinced about the ultra large terrains. Terragen can handle them, but the rendertimes are a real pain. I am hoping more on TG2 and multiple terrain support for combining terrains. But I will see. At all, hihger scales are really no great problems to code.

Johannes

[monks]

Hi Patrick210, yes I understand the new features of the paintbrush (I have yet to suffuiciently explore it, make no doubt) ) and it is innovative, but my point is, it's still a painterly approach. I don't think any paintbrush however large or versatile is going to be that much help when painting HUGE terrains: or Worlds or continents at high res.
I appreciate that this is purely from my perspective of course, I'm convinced as anyone, that there is a lot of demand for this kind of tool that Cajomi have introduced.
I think that a strong 'design mode' and more control over procedurals (which Cajomi has certainly moved towards) are very valuable (and will become increasing more valuable as game worlds get bigger and Google Earth-like platforms rise) additional tools. I mean just take a look at the things planned for World Machine and Wilbur and L3DT. I also know that Leveller has similar aims.

monks

[monks]

Hi Johannes, it's great to see a new terrain app introduce new ideas :)


From our perspective it would be great to have an image overlay option (with transparency settings) over the heightfield in order to be able to paint terrain from a topo reference.


If I understand you right, that is here really simple to solve: Just import the heightfield and then brush on it, or erode it. With the protection slider you have great control, how much details are kept or not.

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear (I've had problems describing this one before :) ). A lot of our work will be transcribing (copying basically) from, and expanding on, a topo map as illustrated here:
http://me-dem.ashundar.com/content/view/46/33/

All it would require is an image import over the terrain pane and the abilty to set the opacity of the imported image. The user would not require any other interaction with the imported image at all. Leveller, for example, imports the image file as a texture overlay on to the terrain.


I am thinking about vectors for version2, and I think it will work great. But mostly about urbanization tools, for building streets, rivers, building places and so on.

Sounds great. :) If you can build a river from a vector, it should be possible to build other natural features, yes?

For a basic terrain I would use the brush, to produce inhomogenous landscapes and afterwards the cut tool, to seperate the whole into smaller terrains, for the closer views.
Version2 will also have a special cutter, which flattens the basic terrain in the cut arrear and then the cutted terrain can be combined without any border.

Also you can build a great project, 4096, by creating smaller terrains and place them, where you want. The layers are movable. So you can combine lets say 16 512er terrains to one 4096er project terrain. For example, a mountain is free movable, or a lake (using a mountain with the subtract method).


Hey- that's cool! Movable layers.
What would be the resolution of the positioning ? Would it possible to move the layers pixel by pixel for instance ?


Georeffed import/export

Digital Canvas Guilde will build a plugin for very many Geo formats with some very interesting special option, like special water terrains, which carry the water informations. It will be available for version 2. And of course it will be not very expensive.

Hmm- all sounds interesting.

Apart from renders (WCS and TG2 for now I think) , we'd like to use our terrains in an enviroment like World Wind or Google-Earth, so georeffing is important to us, but I realise that a lot of people don't use it. Who knows, if the Google Earth paradigm takes off, you might find more users wanting this feature.

Cheers,
monks

[imported_cajomi]

Well,

an image overlay should not be to difficult. Why not!!!
It is in the to do list for version 2.

Rivers and streets and walls are kind of paths, drawn directly into the preview.
Vectors would be quite different. But I do not want to talk too much about it, ......................., but far away from Wilbur or Worldbuilder.

The layers are already moveable in version 1. The move is sychronized with the preview (with its exellent zoom function), so no problem to move only one pixel.

Google-Earth and Worldwind are so absolutly not my taste. But of course projections to spheres will get more important. So far, they are going a totally different way. I am not sure, if I want to part that. I will never try, to own the earth........................, and of course I will not try to get rich, by giving my users the feeling, they could do it.
But I have to do some researches, and will figure out, how generations on a sphere would work.

Johannes

[monks]

an image overlay should not be to difficult. Why not!!!
It is in the to do list for version 2.

Great. We're kind of idiosyncratic at ME-DEM :wink: That of course would mean you could use those textures on the render ouput too.

Rivers and streets and walls are kind of paths, drawn directly into the preview.
Vectors would be quite different. But I do not want to talk too much about it, ......................., but far away from Wilbur or Worldbuilder.

The idea that you have implemented here for terain generation via L-Systems is something that I've recently been discussing with other terrain app developers: lo and behold, you've gone and done it: great idea!!
The paths idea is one that is being worked on too (if I understand you)- splines, etc. Looks like folk are thinking very similarly in the terain world atmo! :)

The layers are already moveable in version 1. The move is sychronized with the preview (with its exellent zoom function), so no problem to move only one pixel.

Cool, that's a nice feature.

But of course projections to spheres will get more important

Yep- hardware is beginning to allow such large scales now.

But I have to do some researches, and will figure out, how generations on a sphere would work.

I will never try, to own the earth........................, and of course I will not try to get rich, by giving my users the feeling, they could do it.

Sure, as an active member of Greenpeace, I think I may have some sympathy with such sentiments. :?
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/saving-paradise100200

However, by extension, at ME-DEM, we're not trying to own 'Middle-earth' (fat chance! :lol: ) -I think people will be happy to know. We're very inclusive and have other 'partners'. We're already hosting an alternative Middle-Earth vision (Tolkien's First Age) to our main project.


Cheers,
Carl : monks

[imported_cajomi]

Oh, it it totally correct to build a own world, that has my full sympathy. It is really Google, what I more and more dislike and this "see all from the space".
I am living on earth, and this "simulation" has the heaviest grapic engine you can imagine, so why try to copy that.

Johannes

[Criss]

Trying to create whole world hieghtfields is a heck of a task... you have to deal with the entire sphere distortion issue at the poles so a filter would have to be added to deal with that issue... once imported onto a sphere (Terragen 2) then additional procedural details could then be added for ground level details... i had a picture of the Blue Marble Earth... i think it was 22,000 wide and the details were breath taking and the task of even semi-succesfully doing something like that is a great challenge... even something the size of Tolkien's Middle Earth is about the area of the United States so that is a heck of alot of details to include.............

I think a nice feature for GeoControl to have is once a large heightfield is completed a filter can be added to account for the spherical distortions and polar joining... also the entire map would have to be seamless as well... then the map can be exported as a .obj/.3ds/.lwo mesh seamless and with out any distortions.................

[monks]

I am living on earth, and this "simulation" has the heaviest grapic engine you can imagine, so why try to copy that.

:lol: yeah, that's pretty much what I think too. I often tease my partner, when I see a beautiful sunset and say: 'Wow, look at those graphics!' -she thinks I spend too much time with digital worlds...hehe
One idea I had, was to set up a donation to Greenpece for each 'area' of Midlle-earth we modelled.

Carl:monks

[monks]

trying to create whole world hieghtfields is a heck of a task... you have to deal with the entire sphere distortion issue at the poles so a filter would have to be added to deal with that issue...

Hi Criss, yeah, tell me about it! There's been innumerable problems along the way, even to get us to where we are. Still more to come too, no doubt.

i had a picture of the Blue Marble Earth... i think it was 22,000 wide and the details were breath taking and the task of even semi-succesfully doing something like that is a great challenge... even something the size of Tolkien's Middle Earth is about the area of the United States so that is a heck of alot of details to include.............

You know, I have never seem a terrain render yet which could make me say 'Oh my, isn't the planet such a incomprehensably beautiful thing'. I can honestly say that Google-Earth has produced that response from me on a few occasions. That's got to be a good thing- eh? It just needs good guardianship from MANY interests.

Yep, that's why we need all the help we can get. Dev interest/support, modellers/builders, consultants, you name it. :)

monks

[SeerBlue]

Hello, the first thing I can say is Thanks, I have using several terrain generation apps for quite awhile (World Machine, Leveller,Wilbur, and even Global Mapper) and this was the easiest to get a great terrain out of with no frustration over the UI, which will be something that will draw alot of beginners and please more experienced terrain folk.
I am also part of the ME-DEM Project Monks posted about above, and so I would like to see Geocontrol do the same things he mentions,(he just got here to post first) and am very happy to see that the overlay feature is added to the to-do list.
Great app, Thanks again. SeerBlue

[imported_cajomi]

this sphere problem is a bit house made.
In principle it is not as half as complicated, as it sounds. But if you use the cartographic system, which is used all around, you run into very heavy trouble.
I could imangine a nearly simple and easy to code solution for such problems. Let me say so far: The äquatorial zone and the poles are not different!! (except the climate)

May be here is a need of going new own ways.

Johannes

[imported_cajomi]

@seerblue
thanks for your so positive feedback and welcome.

Johannes

[Criss]

To get a good idea of the planet map layout there is a free software called Wilbur by Joe Slayton... it provides some very good ideas on how a planet hieghtfield is calculated... although the hieghtfields are vert basic the software functions are nifty and informative..........

http://www.ridgenet.net/~jslayton/software.html

[monks]

Hey Seer- fancy bumpin' into you here!

Yep- Joe Slayton is the man (imo) when it comes to georeffing. Johannes, you might also want to check out ProFantasy's Fractal Terrains Pro (also written by Joe), but I thnink Wilbur will give you lots of insights. F.T uses an inverse projection to allow for drawing on curved surfaces as standard- pretty unique.

monks

[monks]

I've finally gotten chance to have another look at Geocontrol today. I like it! Thought I'd let Johannes know I've registered it. I'll be using it primarily to work on pre-existing terrains. Now I've just got all of those presets to look through... :)

Cheers,
monks

[imported_cajomi]

Hi Monks.

you might know, that another Middle Earth project, Ame, has decided fo rGeoControl. They have found a bug, that causes, that causes imported terrains to be shifted. This bug is fixed for next update.

Johannes

[monks]

Aye, I know, I'm a member of their forum. I joined last year, to get some insights as to what they were doing and tell them about other Middle Earth projects, including ME-DEM. There are a few extant M-E heightmaps out there that I've found trawling the internet over the years, AME's is one of the best. Very cool.
So I get the AME updates in my inbox.

monks