I need some (or many) tips about isolines and overlay

[mauronen]

Hi to all.
I tried to follow as many threads as possible about using of isolines tool. I believed to understood how use it; but, when i've remained alone with my overlay...well...panic!
This is First Age map of Beleriand:
http://www.skindustry.net/medem/files/First%20Age/Beleriand/Tutorial/beleri~2.gif
My workflow is based on "work first on the whole, after refine details". In that process I've ever thought that "selections" was the basis: these are some examples:
Taur-nu-Fuin:
http://www.skindustry.net/medem/files/First%20Age/Beleriand/Tutorial/select~1.gif
Taur-nu-Fuin's selection:
http://www.skindustry.net/medem/files/First%20Age/Beleriand/Tutorial/select~2.gif
Taur-nu-Fuin's ridges selection
http://www.skindustry.net/medem/files/First%20Age/Beleriand/Tutorial/ridges~1.gif
Now i've realize (maybe) that my start point is wrong with GC2. And here the panic!
I've tried to "play" with isolines following Beleriand map outline, but i don't understood how start and continue.
It would be very appreciate if someone could give me a push to start and to "put the train on rails" . After i will try to turn on the engine.
Thanks in advance for any kind of help.

Mauro.

[Jules Verne]

Hmm ok well, firstly GC2 is in Alpha and still has things to add, including layers. You'll not be making you're map until those are activated again. Because as soon as you start to do different style terrain with another set of filters, it'll effect the entire terrain.

Secondly. I'm not entirely sure what you're having trouble with.

[cajomi]

Selections are the basis for applying different filters, but not for the isoline tool.
The isoline tool is also not made, for defining fine details like the ridges in that map scale.
The isolines are for defining the basic elevations, where are the mountains, the valleys, the main ridges and so on.
But in general you will not be able to first define the "continental" map and then went on by zooming in with this alpha. Even with the final release that will be not so easy, but possible.
Before release there will be hand selections, which will make it possible to define areas for the filters, but this will take some time.

[mauronen]

First, thanks Jules Verne and cajomi.
@Jules Verne
My troubles concerns about using selections that i've made for the whole (for example, the white outline above). Cajomi has answered me about this argument; to wait until final release has finished.
Meanwhile i will try to build by hand the whole. I need to deeply understand the power of isolines first to begin the real work.

Mauro.

[monks]

Hi Mauro, as Johannes said, there will be manual selections for filters added at some point. Isolines don't work that way and don't have to- as they compliment selections perfectly. You can already define selections with a lot of ease and power, but as yet there are no manual mask import. Then there will be the layers of course. The good news is, once GC 2.0 is complete, you'll be able to do what you want to do but as ever it will require some work :) . As far as applying isolines as say valleys and ridges as selections, there is no need to do that because once we have mask import all you have to do is weight the filter masks.

As far as defining the entire continent from scratch- that will require a lot of work, but it will be quite feasible. :)

monks

[cajomi]

@mauronen
Would it not be a lot more sensful, to first do some more simple tasks to get warm with a new software. I can guarantee you, that you will run into deep frustration when you try to use a brandnew software for a skill, which will need a advanced usage of the software.

[mauronen]

@cajomi
I understood, but i don't like the maxim "drink or drown". I think that to better use a brandnew software, a GC2 newbie like me must first do little steps, to acquire basic concepts; then, when they are acquired (or assumes it acquired), it possible to start to run with advanced usage. Concerning "deep frustration" i confide that you and other alphatester like Jules Verne and Monks (thanks to all for tips) give me an hand, like i will do for testing and to anyone needs an help.

[Jules Verne]

Mauronen, you should really take cajomi's advice (I've also suggested you do something similar, do little tests and try everything until you're completely confident before attempting to do something huge) After all, he wrote the software and does know what he's talking about.

I'm going to say this, because others are thinking it, but everyone is too polite to say. Now I want you to understand that I'm not being nasty or cruel, simply honest.

You're trying to run before you can walk.

I know you're very excited at getting to work on your project, but the fact remains that you need to learn your tools before you've any hope of doing a successful job of what you're planning to do.

Read back to my first posts here, cajomi suggested the same thing to me, to take things slowly, to practice, learn the software. Which I am doing. I'm using the time I have between now and the release of a stable final version of GC2, to become better acquainted with the software, jumping between GC1 and GC2 as I see fit. Trying out different idea's, making mistakes as I go and hopefully learning from them. I could if I wanted, jump right in and do it all right now, but I'd rather wait and see if I can improve first, because that end result is what people are going to see.

At the same time I'm testing things in my game with the terrains, just seeing how things work together. Breaking things a lot, finding ways to avoid the problems or fix them. I certainly wont be beginning work on anything even remotely resembling my final map for a long time yet. I'd rather make sure I know what I'm doing first, see what others are doing with it, maybe pick up idea's, or learn a few new tricks as I go. I may even come up with a better solution between now and then too.


If I were you, I'd throw away that map and just play with the software for a few weeks or however long you feel necessary until you can honestly say you're experienced with its use, to the point of being able to create an entire terrain of such scale.

Believe me, you'll find life much easier down the line if you take it slow like that. You won't become as frustrated or feel like giving up when things don't work out exactly how you hoped.

For example. I'm personally spending a long time just with isolines, trying to see how much I can do by only using those. Pushing them as far as I can before moving onto other features. I'm also spending a lot of time only using the brush from the first one. GC1 may be out of date soon, but I still believe there will be a call for the brush feature and I think there will be a way to benefit from using both versions in the same project. A good example of that, would be using the brush much further down the line, to fine tune the zoomed in tiled maps, just adding little bits of detail here and there quickly.

So yeah, put away the map and just play with the app for a bit, and you'll find it much easier later to do what you plan to do.

[monks]

:lol- knowing what I know of Mauro, he'll no doubt surprise us and finish the continent in a couple of weeks. He's a terrain nut! hehe.

Apart from getting to grips with the specific tools of GC- the only thing you need to concentrate on Mauro is avoiding the flat areas between mountains and hills. Imo you need to get the larger scale subtle changes in height. You know what I'm going to say but I'll say it anyway, use the rivers (...or the force :) ) In GC 2.0 you now have an easier way to do that.

monks

[mauronen]

Thanks to all, guys
I'll try to get mine all your tips and i'll try to merge all in a workflow that fits my needs.

@Jules Verne
You're trying to run before you can walk.
...and if i break one of my leg? In this case i need to go on all fours :D
Johannes, i'm sorry for this little OT.

[Jules Verne]

:lol- knowing what I know of Mauro, he'll no doubt surprise us and finish the continent in a couple of weeks. He's a terrain nut! hehe.

Apart from getting to grips with the specific tools of GC- the only thing you need to concentrate on Mauro is avoiding the flat areas between mountains and hills. Imo you need to get the larger scale subtle changes in height. You know what I'm going to say but I'll say it anyway, use the rivers (...or the force ) In GC 2.0 you now have an easier way to do that.

monks

Well I'll certainly give him that, I wish more people had his enthusiasm :) I'd love to see him do this, I don't want him to give up on it down the line. :)

-

Here's what I'd do, course it assumes layers are available so can't do it directly in GC2 right now. And I don't know the fancy scientific names for terrain related things other than mountain, hill and volcano *grins*.

Create a layer which would just be the underwater features, and the flat terrace like structure that seems to surround all land. Use masks on that to try and get the effect of water moving through channels faster than other parts. Kinda OTT detail I admit, but you seem to want to do this right so why not. I'm sure someone out there would notice and think it cool. :)

Another layer would be for the low level area's, beaches and so on.

One for meadow type area's

Another layer for hills

Another for rocky type mountains

Another layer for larger snowy peaks

and so on for all the different types of terrain, even different layers for the same type if parts are distant apart. That way you'll be able to shift them about the terrain and decide on their height in relation with the rest of it, fine tune where you want things (you don't have to stick 100% to your map overlays. And with masks, it'll mean you can use all kinds on even the same type of terrain, giving more unique looking effects.

That's what I'm waiting for, while for me, extreme detail isn't a big cause for concern, as nobody will ever see it. Having those little touches in will keep me happy hehe. In fact, that just reminded me of a feature request I dearly hope cajomi will implement! *runs off to post that*

[cajomi]

The problem with layers will be, that the erosions will loose there natural look. Rivers are also broken. To get a borderless mix, you will have to use blendings. So with this many layers you will have many blendings, and blendings are always a lost of details.

I think, layes should only be used, where in nature we have different materials, which are stacked, like sand dunes in a valley.
Using layers for height defined areas would really make not much sense, since this can be done with the selections very easy. But with the selections a flow of an erosion can run through.
Well, I must say, I am not the layer typ. Although I use many layers in PS, within GC they are only for special solutions. Every layer needs its own generation, so every layer cost much time, then the putting together cost time, again working on a single layer cost time.
And I have often seen, that many layers are used to get it more complex. Well that works, but complex does not always mean better.
In PS when you are painting an image, the layers are used to separate a figure from the background, for example. So, the layers separate, what is separated in the image. But in a terrain, not one pixel is separarted from another, they are all one landscape.
Just my thoughts about using layers.

[Jules Verne]

Ahh, I see what you're saying. While I've not run into that problem so far, I'll be keeping an eye out for it in future when I use layers. Thanks for the heads up! :)